SiP Fans, Speak Out

[Darth Fett]

Weeeeelllllll, SiP IS a soap opera.
It's just a very well done one.

I have thought about some of the weaker points of the series, and actually realized that Terry has done some interesting things in the 'crime drama' part.
Interestingly he uses the old character archetype of the 'Gangster's Moll' but in Katchoo he turns it upside down-the Dame IS the Gangster. With Kat and Darcy we see a common mentor type relationship, like Batman and Robin, or more correctly, like the Emperor and Darth Vader. The pupil surpasses the master. While this isn't new, you do have to give it a bit of a twist to fit the modified archetypes Terry uses into it, thus making for some decent reading.
Until I realized this, I thought the 'crime drama' bits were just kinda dumb, but now I take them as almost allegorical(because the crime drama doesn't have the same level of realism the interpersonal drama) to Kat's past that we don't/haven't seen-relating the kinds of things she was involved in so we can see her ability to survive and adapt.

As far as the 'Soap Opera' bit is concered, sure, I can accept that. But the reason I say it's an exceptionally good soap opera is because I have seen people act and react in exactly the same ways(usually the stupid ones...) that the characters do. He strikes a chord there, and that is a personal thing. The comics this guy reads and thinks are soooo f'ing cool would probably bore me to tears-to be honest, most indie's do. But there is such a huge sea of comics out there, there are going to be ones that click, ones that don't, and ones that you just can't stand. Unless we are talking about a Rob Liefeld level of 'untalent', there really is no objective basis for saying what is good or bad. Yes, you can look at Young Blood and say, 'DAMN! That is AWFUL!'. But if there is a carfeully crafted story, attention and talent have been put into the artwork and storytelling, the only thing you can really say is that you didn't like it. I mean, I HATE cerebus. Loathe it actually. BUT, I won't say the book shouldn't exsist, or demand cerebus fans defend it.
I just say, man, I hate cerebus, and leave it at that. If this monkey spank hates SiP, that's his problem.

Darth

PS- I bet iot's the little whinner who posted on here for a few days under the name 'Critic in Paradise'-sounds like the same kinda crap....

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'Faith. What a dirty monosyllable. Jill, why didn't you mention that one when you were teaching me the short words that musn't be used in polite company?'
-Valentine Michael Smith, aka the Man from Mars- Stranger in a Strange Land

[Thrasymachos]

Some philistine called Sean Bieri started a thread "SIP Fans, I'm Calling You Out" on the discussion forum over at www.sequentialtart.com. This is a good Website, with a lot of interesting articles, so don't knock them.
But this fellow calls Strangers in Paradise a "soap opera" and dares us to defend it. Clearly someone with no appreciation of art or literature or any of the finer things. Phrases have been tossed around like "mafia melodrama" and "maudlin sentimentality". He wants to know why we like S.i.P., so let's tell him.
Please, NO FLAMES. Let's try the David approach first. If that fails, send in Tambi.

[Darth Fett]

Yeah, I know ya like Cerebus Mibbit, just checkin' to see if you were paying attention!

But aren't you using some circular logic there? I don't like soap operas, but I like this, so this can't be a soap opera?

Y'see, it's funny, cause that's the same dilemna comics is in: the medium is labeled and people go out of their way to get around the label, instead of just ignoring it. SiP is a soap opera, and critics be damned. It's GOOD whatever you label it. Personal taste is the only place you can talk down about it, and that says more about you as a fan/reader than it does about the work...


Darth

PS-Mibbit-I promise to use Love and Rockets next time I have to give an example of a big indy that I don't like, ok?

[Thrasymachos]

S.i.P. is NOT a soap opera because it has a real plot with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Soap operas never end, but S.i.P. will. Terry doesn't just make it up as he goes along. He plants tiny clues that stick in your mind and years later they go off and you say, Of course! Terry doesn't run Kill Jason Todd contests. He isn't swayed by our opinions or wishes. The epitome of bad soap opera writing is Bobby Ewing coming back to Dallas. Terry doesn't cheat like that. Darcy is dead and she's not coming back (although for a second Veronica thought so). The characters of hack writers are seldom consistent; they change arbitrarily for no other reason than the exigencies of the current episodes. Soap operas are written by interchangeable hirelings. S.i.P. characters develop, but naturally and for reasons. When they get hurt, it takes them a long time to get over it. They hurt so badly, they seem real. Heck, they're more real than some people I know.

[Mibbitmaker]

What Thras said! No, I wasn't using circular logic. I meant that, first and foremost, SIP isn't, iMo, a soapopera(in spite of the similarities I admitted). Then I mentioned that I don't care for soap operas. Logical conclusion(again, my opinion only), SIP wouldn't appeal to me for that reason. I liked the TV show Soap, although a soap PARODY, and it did, as far as that went,take the form of a soap. So, indirectly, at least, I do like a show that is, more or less, a soap opera. More of one than Cheers. That's as close to liking a soap as I get(tho, admittedly, I did watch some Dark Shadows as a kid. Bad example, again, since that wasn't formally a typical soap.). Enough comicbook and literary value to make SIP different(to me, anyway)(I fully admit to liking parentheses WAY too much! )

[Mibbitmaker]

Hey, I *like* Cerebus! .... Okay, seriously OT.....SIP has ELEMENTS of a soap opera: human interest stories, serialized story structure, a crime subplot, romantic/sex content(difference in degree from soaps, tho). But I don't see SIP as a soap. For starters, if it were just a soap, with its soppy, contrived melodrama, I wouldn't be a fan! Other entertainments borrow from soap opera without BEING one, an example: Cheers, esp. the Sam & Dianne story. Of course, it's already the sitcom form. SIP has even been refered to as a soap-not-in-a-bad-way(besides the above post), so that, in and of itself, wouldn't disqualify SIP as good reading. Even if it WERE a soap, in THIS medium, ANYthing not superhero-like is a boon for comic books. An indy fan cannot, imho, dismiss a book like SIP. I certainly believe in elevating certain books even though they don't suit my tastes because they're good to the medium to have more variety.

[ratzo]

Well, as an emissary from the Sequential Tart boards, let me say I appreciate you guys backing us up! This actually started from something totally unrelated - a thread about Chris Ware, of all people...

In fairness, I should say that Sean Bieri is a known and respected self-publisher; it's not like he's some superhero fanboy know-it-all, believe me. He perhaps came across a bit strong in his intial post, but it was meant as tongue-in-cheek.

SIP is a soap opera. It's also a crime thriller, a comedy; it's a bunch of things. I don't think you can limit it to a single genre, and that's just one part of why it's so great.

Anyway, just wanted you guys to know the score. This is turning into a huge debate - feel free to stop on by!

[Darth Fett]

Yeah!

What Ratzo said.

You confuse the execution of a tv soap opera with the story archetype of 'The Soap Opera', Thrasymachos-everything you said was true, but it doesn'e change my standpoint that SiP is a 'Soap Opera'

But, it's not like what I say 'goes' or anything-that's my take on it, and it's a pretty inclusive one, so I stand by it.
All the while smiling friendly-like as you disagree

Nice to hear the 'instigator' wasn't actually throwing stones. Maybe by prodiing the fans to think about it, they will have a better understanding of why they like it, and thus why they like comics.

Darth

[Oz]

i pretty much agree with darth (lemme know if im putting words in your mouth buddy).

i think that SiP is a soap. but its like...intelligent soap. you know how some ppl say that wrestling is like a soap opera for males? well, i kinda think of SiP as a soap for intelligent people.

Quote:
SIP is a soap opera. It's also a crime thriller, a comedy; it's a bunch of things. I don't think you can limit it to a single genre, and that's just one part of why it's so great. ~ Ratzo

i think thats a great point. the fact is that you could really classify ALL comics as soap operas. they are episodic. most end in cliffhangers. they give us fictional characters that we, for some reason, care about.

"soap opera" as a term doesnt necessiraly have to be bad. its just something that weve come to see as bad cuz of all the shit that weve seen cuz of it.

just my two pennies.

[Jaxom 27]

Hey...I'm stepping out here...big surprise...but SiP is a first rate soap opera.

I can't really add anything new to those who have already said the same thing I just did, except to say that the "mob" elements of the story, Darth, you've gone to describe some of the stuff I've spouted for a while now about how it all fits into the grand scheme Terry seems to be playing out.

It's a soap. It's just a well defined and supremely presented one...

2 cents.

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Ponte facto, Caesar transit.